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  1. #1
    Ronin

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    Why is South Korea becoming increasingly anti-China?

    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._May12_rpt.pdf

    south koreans held the most negative view of china in all country surveyed, even higher than japan while china's view of south korea is mainly positive. in fact in 2010, before the ship sinking incident and constant military drills with US near chinese waters, china was the only country that held more positive views of south korea besides south korean themselves.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...0bbcwspoll.pdf

    postive view of S korea dived after incessant drills with US near chinese waters.
    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Mar11_rpt.pdf

    but positive views of korea by china have since recovered in 2012. however south korea views china more and more negatively. any reasons?

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    Gone with the Wind

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    Quote Quote
    any reasons?
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  3. #3
    Binjbinj
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    Because of U.S present in the region military. I wouldn't be surprise too with Thailand in the near future.
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    being anti-china is almost a benchmark for development. More anti-china, higher HDI.
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    Public opinion tends to be fickle...
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              Ethnicity:   Chinese in a Chinese body

    Quote Originally Posted by good View Post
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    being anti-china is almost a benchmark for development. More anti-china, higher HDI.
    Anti-China normally means pro-USA.
    Most pro-USA nations (eg West Europe) are developed.

    Being aligned to the USA during the cold war era meant that America invested and assisted that country in development (sometimes in exchange for military bases) such as Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan. By doing this, USA is saying "don't turn Communist, ally with me and your country will be developed like us".
    Another way of looking at it is that pro-China nations are traditionally Communist, and subsequently less developed.

    This has changed in recent times however, now that China has money available to invest in other countries. China contributing to the development of African nations come to mind.
    Last edited by thewalrus; 11-26-2012 at 06:41 PM.
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    The transitive tide you speak of will never happen. China will not be able to enrich her satellite countries in the long-term. The Yanks are devils but they transform a country from the ground up. I'm not sure their agenda now, but historically American assistance was predicated on the precondition of democratic government and economic liberalization. These requirements are the necessary stabilizing force to pave the road for industrialization fueled by the confidence of foreign investors. As a result, these developing countries gained access to new capital and technical assistance across industries.

    If you look at Africa-China relations, all the developments were made to increase natural resource mining or extraction, with the harvested products purchased in bulk to ship back to China. These African countries only develop in specific industries, all of which are labor intensive. China will help Angola produce better oil extraction methods and DR Congo better cobalt mining methods. However, key infrastructures that promote long-term industrialization like education and health care are completely ignored, not to mention China's insistence on trading with any government in power.

    Historically, mining wealth is one of the most destabilizing form of economic development. Nigeria had more schools and hospitals before the oil boom. None of these developments and money made from oil helped the local people long-term. Since so much money is made in such a small industry, it is almost axiomatic that a few dynastic families ended up controlling everything. This is why so long as the Arabs depend on oil for export as a key industry they will never develop as a region. I guess one can find relevance in the African American obsession with sports/entertainments as the goal to economic prosperity. These are industries that cannot support a lot of people, just select individuals, either by inborn talent or familial connection. In Africa and the Middle East, where China gets most of the export preferences, the profits all go into buying arms to keep whoever in power longer. The Americans are no different to China in some respects but they offer more institutional and long-term changes. Asian people are naturally capitalistic so the American framework has helped countries like Taiwan, Thailand, and S. Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by thewalrus View Post
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    Anti-China normally means pro-USA.
    Most pro-USA nations (eg West Europe) are developed.

    Being aligned to the USA during the cold war era meant that America invested and assisted that country in development (sometimes in exchange for military bases) such as Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan. By doing this, USA is saying "don't turn Communist, ally with me and your country will be developed like us".
    Another way of looking at it is that pro-China nations are traditionally Communist, and subsequently less developed.

    This has changed in recent times however, now that China has money available to invest in other countries. China contributing to the development of African nations come to mind.
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    Ronin

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    Quote Originally Posted by thewalrus View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Anti-China normally means pro-USA.
    Most pro-USA nations (eg West Europe) are developed.

    Being aligned to the USA during the cold war era meant that America invested and assisted that country in development (sometimes in exchange for military bases) such as Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan. By doing this, USA is saying "don't turn Communist, ally with me and your country will be developed like us".
    Another way of looking at it is that pro-China nations are traditionally Communist, and subsequently less developed.

    This has changed in recent times however, now that China has money available to invest in other countries. China contributing to the development of African nations come to mind.
    that's not entirely correct. according to the poll, australia, the UK, and canada all have strongly favorable view of china.

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  9. #9
    Gone with the Wind

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    well, the most undeveloped ass on this site is good, and he is most anti-china
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  10. #10
    Elder

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    Quote Originally Posted by lite View Post
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    south koreans held the most negative view of china in all country surveyed, even higher than japan while china's view of south korea is mainly positive. in fact in 2010, before the ship sinking incident and constant military drills with US near chinese waters, china was the only country that held more positive views of south korea besides south korean themselves.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...0bbcwspoll.pdf
    Why do you think China was the only foreign country that held more positive views of South Korea in the 2010 report? The report clearly says otherwise. Overall, it looks fairly neutral. It was more on the negative side in Western Europe where Korea is not well-known whereas everyone knows NK. Many of them still don't seem to know the difference between SK and NK. Thailand's high negative views on SK in 2010 realistically didn't make sense and they found that in the Thai questionnaire, they mixed up SK and NK. GlobeScan released a corrected version later.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...10_bbcpoll.pdf

    I think it works like this. If the view starts from neutral, you go

    Negative:
    Internationally high-profile war-mongering or brutal dictatorship.
    Direct political conflicts (usually with geographically close countries).
    Turning negative can be quite fast as news reports tend to be negative and they can be delivered quickly and widely.

    Positive:
    "Soft power" in a broad sense, which takes a long time to build up.

    Quote Originally Posted by lite View Post
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    however south korea views china more and more negatively. any reasons?
    Looking at the relevant current affairs, I think the fishermen issue has been bothering many Koreans in the recent years. Many Chinese fishermen invade Korean EEZ and fight Korean coastguards. These are not isolated incidents but daily occurrences as an ongoing chronic problem. I think many Koreans also have an impression that those fisherman are not shamed but rather supported by their countrymen. They are desperate people due to their own fishery mismanagement but Koreans cannot just sit back and be sympathetic to them when they harm Korean fishermen/their equipments/fishery and even attack Korean officers in Korean EEZ. Deadly incidents can happen at any moment. You may have a very vague idea but if you watch footage and interviews, it's pretty serious. The outlook is pessimistic because there's no quick solution and the Chinese government doesn't seem to be willing to take charge.

    "Yellow Sea is under siege."

    Even when you see 10 positives, if that one negative takes the priority, you will be inclined to answer "negative".

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  11. #11
    Ronin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jindotgae View Post
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    Why do you think China was the only foreign country that held more positive views of South Korea in the 2010 report? The report clearly says otherwise.
    what i meant was china was the country that had the highest percentage of positive views besides ROK koreans themselves.

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  12. #12
    Sage

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              Ethnicity:   Chinese in a Chinese body

    Quote Originally Posted by lite View Post
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    that's not entirely correct. according to the poll, australia, the UK, and canada all have strongly favorable view of china.
    Whoosh!
    Pro-China nations are traditionally Communist
    Those countries are allied to to USA.
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  13. #13
    News Publisher

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    Mao Zedong once compared the relationship of China and North Korea to that of "lips and teeth 脣亡齒寒." I don't know who is the teeth and who is the lips but what he meant was that the friendship of China and North Korea is so strong that cannot be separated like "teeth and lips(or gums)."
    Today, there are only five communist countries in the world: China, Cuba, North Korea, Laos, and Vietnam. Among them, North Korea is the most friendly buddy buddy with China. After South Korean vessel Cheonan was sunk by North Korean torpedo attack, North Korea denied any involvement, naturally. South Korea invited China to join the inspection of the damaged vessel and other evidence that was collected. All other countries that were invited including Russia, Australia and Sweden sent inspection teams to South Korea but China refused to join.

    So, if some of the South Koreans don't feel very friendly towards China right now it is also true that North Korea is very friendly towards China, so that will make it even.

    North Korean leader Kim Jong-un takes a ride next to Chinese Ambassador to North Korea Liu Hongcai during a visit to an amusement park in Pyongyang


    Jang Sung-taek, an uncle of Kim Jung-Un and also a power behind the throne in North Korea meets Chinese authorities in Beijing


    The allies pledged to bolster their ties as Kim Jung-eun met with Li Jianguo, vice chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress, and other officials of the Communist Party of China in the North Korean capital, Pyongyang.
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  14. #14
    Gone with the Wind

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    "when lips wither the teeth will lose its warmth"
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  15. #15
    Gone with the Wind

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    wasn't cheonan determined to have been caused by a stray US homing mine? they had a knee jerk reaction on NK, but chinese decided it was not possible that NK made the attack. and the torpedo parts that were fished up as proof looked like it was just an old torpedoe that never exploded.
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  16. #16
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    Bombings by North Korea that have never been admitted

    Rangoon bombing


    The Rangoon bombing of October 9, 1983, was an assassination attempt against Chun Doo-hwan, the fifth President of South Korea, orchestrated by North Korea. Two of the bombers were captured, one of whom confessed to being a North Korean military officer.


    North Korean terrorists blew up the Aung San National Cemetery in Rangoon, Burma, on Oct. 9, 1983, in an attempt to assassinate South Korean President Chun Doo Hwan, who was on a state visit at the time. Chun narrowly escaped the attack, but 17 top South Korean officials were killed in the incident.

    On October 9, 1983, President Chun Doo-hwan was on an official visit to Rangoon, the capital of Burma. During the visit he planned to lay a wreath at the Martyrs' Mausoleum to commemorate Aung San, who founded the independent Burma and was assassinated in 1947. As some of the president's staff began assembling at the mausoleum, one of three bombs concealed in the roof exploded. The huge blast ripped through the crowd below, killing 21 people and wounding 46 others. Three senior South Korean politicians were killed: foreign minister Lee Beom-seok; economic planning minister and deputy prime minister, Suh Suk Joon; and minister for commerce and industry, Kim Dong Whie. Fourteen Korean presidential advisers, journalists, and security officials were killed; 4 Burmese nationals, including 3 journalists, were also among the dead. President Chun was saved because his car had been delayed in traffic and was only minutes from arriving at the memorial. The bomb was reportedly detonated early because the presidential bugle which signaled Chun's arrival mistakenly rang out a few minutes ahead of schedule.



    Burmese police identified three suspects, an army major and two captains. A police investigation revealed that they had slipped off a ship docked in Yangon port, and had received explosives in a North Korean diplomatic mission. Suspect Kang Min-chul and another attacker attempted to commit suicide by blowing themselves up with a hand grenade that same day, but survived and were arrested, although Kang lost an arm. A third suspect, Zin Bo (believed to be a major from North Korean Army), went missing, but was hunted down by the Burmese Army. Zin managed to kill three soldiers before being shot. Kang Min-chul confessed his mission and links to North Korea, an action by which he was able to avoid a death sentence and instead received life imprisonment. His colleague was executed by hanging. North Korea denied any links to Kang,

    As a result of the bombing, Burma suspended diplomatic relations with North Korea.

    Kang was Myanmar's longest-serving prisoner. He learned to speak the Burmese language fluently according to one of his fellow prisoners. Yangon's moves towards resuming relations with North Korea led to speculation about what would happen to Kang. Because North Korea denied that he was a North Korean citizen, he may have been considered a stateless person. Kang reportedly did not want to go to North Korea, which he believed considered him a traitor (because of his having revealed its criminal operations); or to South Korea, which might have tried him for his role in the assassination attempt.



    In 2006, Chung Hyung-Keun, a member of South Korea's Grand National Party and a former employee of South Korean intelligence, sponsored a bill to bring Kang to South Korea. Kang died of liver cancer on 18 May 2008 in Burma.

    Korean Air Flight 858 Bombing

    Korean Air Flight 858 was a scheduled international passenger flight between Baghdad, Iraq, and Seoul, South Korea that exploded in mid-air on 29 November 1987 after two North Korean agents planted a bomb inside an overhead storage bin in the airplane's passenger cabin.

    The two agents, acting upon orders from the North Korean government, planted the device in an overhead storage bin before disembarking from the aircraft during the first stop-over in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates. While the aircraft was flying over the Andaman Sea to its second stop-over in Bangkok, Thailand, the bomb detonated and destroyed the Korean Air Boeing 707-3B5C. Everybody on board the aircraft, including the 104 passengers and 11 crew members, most of whom were South Koreans, were killed.

    Kim Hyun-Hui, also known as Ok Hwa, a former North Korean agent is responsible for the Korean Air Flight 858 bombing in 1987, which killed 115 people.

    Kim Hyun-Hui was born in Kaesong, North Korea. Her father was a career diplomat and as a result, the family lived in Cuba for some time. Kim excelled as a student and in after-school activities.

    Kim was originally trained as an actress, and starred in North Korea's first Technicolor film, playing a girl whose family fled to North Korea to escape poverty in South Korea, as North Koreans are taught that South Koreans live in extreme poverty. In 1972, due to her family connections, she was selected to present flowers to the senior South Korean delegate at the North-South talks in Pyongyang.



    After graduating from high school, she enrolled in the Pyongyang Foreign Language College, where she studied Japanese. However, she had barely begun her studies when she was recruited for espionage work.

    Soon after joining the North Korean spy agency, Kim was given a new name, Ok Hwa and sent to live in a compound outside of Pyongyang. There, Kim spent seven years learning tradecraft. Her training included martial arts, physical fitness, and three years of Japanese. Kim's Japanese instructor was Yaeko Taguchi, one of many Japanese kidnapped by North Korea. Later, Kim testified that Taguchi was known to her as Lee Eun-hye (李恩惠, 리은혜). Additionally, students at this facility were shown propaganda films. At the end of her training, Kim was rigorously tested. Part of her final exam required her to infiltrate and steal documents from a mock embassy.

    Kim spent time in China studying Chinese and was allowed to travel through Europe with an older man, known to her as Kim Seung Il (金勝一). This was part of her extensive preparation to complete a mission that was of great importance to the ruling Kim family. Her younger brother had died and her sister, who had married, was now a widow. The two lived in Macau for a time, where they used Zokwang Trading as a base of operations.

    In 1987, Kim was given an assignment to blow up KAL 858. She was told that the order came directly from the "Dear Leader himself, Kim Jong-Il. Handwritten, that is..." She was told that if she was successful, she would be able to return and live with her family and would not have to work as an agent afterward. She was once again paired with Kim Seung Il who was recovering from an operation to his stomach.

    She was traveling with a fake Japanese passport under the name of Mayumi Hachiya (蜂谷 真由美 Hachiya Mayumi) along with Kim Seung Il, who posed as her father and used the name Shinichi Hachiya (蜂谷 真一 Hachiya Shin'ichi). The two traveled through Europe and eventually met other North Korean agents in Budapest who provided them with the materials to complete their mission. Once they had left the bomb behind (hidden in a radio device) in a luggage rack of KAL 858, Kim Hyon Hui and Kim Seung Il disembarked in Abu Dhabi and traveled to Bahrain. The two terrorists were apprehended in Bahrain after investigators discovered that their passports were fake. Kim Seung Il bit a cyanide pill that was hidden in a cigarette and died. Kim Hyun Hui unsuccessfully attempted to do the same, but a Bahraini policewoman snatched the cigarette out of her mouth just as she started to ingest the poison. She was hospitalized and then later interrogated.

    At first, she insisted that her name was Pai Chui Hui, an orphan from Northern China who had met an elderly Japanese man with whom she was traveling. She denied any sexual involvement with her partner Kim Seung Il. However, her accent also did not sound like she came from northern China. After Bahrain was convinced she was actually a North Korean, she was flown to Seoul under heavy guard.

    In an interview with Washington Post correspondent Don Oberdorfer, Kim said that she'd been led to believe the bombing was necessary to aid the cause of reuniting the peninsula. However, the sight of Seoul's prosperity made her realize she'd "committed the crime of killing compatriots."

    Publishers Weekly, in its 1992 review of the book Shoot the Women First by Eileen MacDonald, described Kim as "robot-like" and "wholly submissive to male authority".

    According to testimony at a United Nations Security Council meeting, Kim was taken on several occasions to see the prosperity of Seoul outside of her prison cell. The prison authorities also showed her TV shows and news reports showing the affluent lifestyle on South Korea. She had been taught that the South was a corruption-riddled fief of the United States, and poverty was widespread. She'd also been told that if she were ever captured, she'd be subject to hideous torture. However, her captors treated her with great sympathy.



    In January 1988, Kim announced at a press conference held by the Agency for National Security Planning, the South Korean secret services agency, that both she and her partner were North Korean operatives. She said that they had left a radio containing 350 grams of C-4 explosive and a liquor bottle containing approximately 700 ml of PLX explosive in an overhead rack in the passenger cabin of the aircraft. Kim expressed remorse at her actions and asked for the forgiveness of the families of those who had died. She also said that the order for the bombing had been "personally penned" by Kim Jong-il, the son of North Korean President Kim Il-sung, who had wanted to destabilize the South Korean government, disrupt its upcoming elections and frighten international teams from attending the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul, later that year. "It is natural that I should be punished and killed a hundred times for my sin," she said. Writing in The Washington Post on 15 January 1988, journalist Peter Maass stated that it was not clear to him if Kim was coerced in her remarks or was motivated by remorse for her actions.



    Kim was subsequently sentenced to execution for the bombing of KAL 858, but she was later pardoned by the President of South Korea, Roh Tae-woo. “The persons who ought to be on trial here are the leaders of North Korea," he said. "This child is as much a victim of this evil regime as the passengers aboard KAL 858.”

    North Korea continues to deny involvement in the attack on KAL 858, saying that the incident was a "fabrication" by South Korea and other countries.

    Kim Jong-il became the leader of North Korea in 1994, succeeding his father. In 2001, the relatives of the victims killed in the attack demanded that Kim Jong-il be arrested for terrorism offences when he visited Seoul later in the year. Two petitions were filed against him, with the activists and relatives stating that there was strong evidence—namely Kim's testimony—to suggest he was ultimately responsible for the bombing. They also called for him to make a public apology for the incident and formally compensate the victims' families. The leader of a South Korean victimes group, lawyer Lee Chul-sung, said, "Kim Jong-il must be arrested and punished if he comes to Seoul without admitting his criminal acts and offering an apology and compensation."Kim Jong-il was not arrested, however. He died in December 2011, and was succeeded by his son, Kim Jong-un.

    In 2010, Kim visited Japan, where she met the families of Japanese people abducted by North Korea during the 1970s and 1980s who were forced to teach North Korean spies to disguise themselves as Japanese. The Japanese government waived immigration rules in order for the visit to take place, since Kim is regarded as a criminal in the country for her use of the false passport. The Japanese press, however, criticized the visit, for which security was tight over fears that she might be attacked. Kim arrived in the country on a private jet chartered by the Japanese government, and was ushered into a car shielded by large umbrellas. During the visit, she stayed in a holiday home owned by Yukio Hatoyama, then-Prime Minister of Japan.



    Kim today resides in an undisclosed location and remains under constant protection for fear of reprisals, from either victims' families or the North Korean government, which has described her as a traitor to their cause.
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    Gone with the Wind

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    south korean military government is hardly always the victim. during the war they summarily executed tens of thousands of suspected communists, and there was a major shooting on civilians even in the 80's.
    the mutual terror ended only when cold war ended, china gave recognition to south korea, and north korea agreed to join the NPT.
    now we all know who messed up the NPT, it was not the north.
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    1996 Gangneung submarine infiltration incident

    The 1996 Gangneung submarine infiltration incident occurred on September 18, 1996, near the South Korean town of Gangneung. The incident was one of the more serious instances of North Korean espionage involving naval forces.

    On September 15, a North Korean Sang-O class submarine landed a three person special operations reconnaissance team on the shores near Gangneung. Their mission was to spy on the naval installations in the area and then return. The submarine made a failed attempt to collect the team on the 17th, and returned the following day. The submarine, however, ran aground in the attempt, and all efforts to try to make her free were in vain.

    The crew then decided to destroy the sensitive equipment in the submarine and try to make it to the DMZ. The crew split up in several groups but one was soon spotted by a civilian who became suspicious and alerted the authorities, who quickly mobilized every force necessary.

    South Korean manhunt

    A 49-day long manhunt ensued, from 18 September through 5 November, resulting in the capture or elimination of all the crew and members of the reconnaissance team, except one, who is believed to have made it back to North Korea. 12 ROK soldiers, 8 by firefight and 4 accidental, 4 civilians died, and 27 soldiers were wounded.

    Of the 25 North Korean infiltrators, 1 was captured, 11 were murdered by the other members for failure in resonsibility of running aground of the submarine, and 13 were killed in firefights with the ROK Army. Some analysts suspected that the motivation behind the assassination of Choe Deok-geun, South Korean consul for the Russian Far East, was retaliation for these killings.

    The submarine was salvaged and towed to a naval base for investigation. One captured crewmember, the submarine's helmsmen, Lee Kwang Soo, gave in after much interrogation and revealed much of the plans. He later became an instructor in the South Korean Navy.

    North Korea was at first denied any responsibility but later issued an official apology on December 29. The following day, the remains of the infiltrators were returned to North Korea.

     






    Timeline of North Korean casualties

    September 18 16:40 - 1 captured by local police
    September 18 17:00 - 11 bodies of executed submarine crew members were found
    September 19 10:00 - 3 killed by ROKA Commandos
    September 19 14:00 - 3 killed by ROKA SWCs
    September 19 16:00 - 1 killed by ROKA
    September 21 20:00 - 1 killed by ROKA
    September 22 06:00 - 1 killed by ROKA
    September 28 06:30 - 1 killed by ROKA
    September 30 16:00 - 1 killed by ROKA SWCs
    November 5 10:00 - 2 killed by ROKA SWCs





    The actual North Korean submarine can be seen in Gangreung beach park in South Korea.




    Lee Kwangsoo, the only survived North Korean infiltrator is now an instructor in the South Korean navy.
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    no surrender!!
    these guys are pretty hardcore, especially executing the 11 crew, if that's true.
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              Ethnicity:   Chinese in a Chinese body

    North Korea needs to stop their bullshit
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