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  1. #1
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    History of Vietnam before year 0

    Post links to articles, papers, and photos about the archeology and history of Vietnam before 0 BC.

    One of the fascinating aspect of Vietnam is that it was the first metal-age civilization in Southeast Asia. The Dong Son culture of present-day northern Vietnam developed fine skills and workmanship in bronze and iron, and numerous artifacts from that era have been unearthed. Many of these date 1000-500 BC.
    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-18-2017 at 11:46 PM.
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    Some photos of Dong Son bronze artifacts.

    Lamp from 700-500 BC.




    Figurines




    Metal jar




    War and ceremonial bronze drums




    Swords




    Laddle

    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 04-03-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Wiki basics of Dong Son culture:

    The Đông Sơn culture (literally "East Mountain culture", but from the name of Đông Sơn village) was a Bronze Age culture in ancient Vietnam centered at the Red River Valley of northern Vietnam from 700-500 BC until the first century AD. It was the last great culture of Văn Lang (as Vietnam was known then) and continued well into the next Vietnamese state of Âu Lạc. Its influence spread to other parts of Southeast Asia, including Maritime Southeast Asia, from about 1000 BC to 1 BC.
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    Some mtDNA haplogroup data from a Man Bac burial site in northern Vietnam. Man Bac predates Dong Son by at least 1000 years.

    Source: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/j.ctt24hcpx.13.pdf

    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-19-2017 at 01:14 AM.
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    Man Bac morphology. Again, Man Bac existed 1000 years before Dong Son.



    Source: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/j.ctt24hcpx.16.pdf
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    Who were the Dong San (Tong San) culture founder elites 1,000~500 BCE in Northern Viet Nam?

    Were they related to the modern Muong or Tay people, now the minorities in Viet Nam?

    The Muong, Thay and even Hmong have remarkable "Bronze Drum" culture and also cook "Five Color Sticky Rice" in their occasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 222 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Who were the Dong San (Tong San) culture founder elites 1,000~500 BCE in Northern Viet Nam?

    Were they related to the modern Muong or Tay people, now the minorities in Viet Nam?

    The Muong, Thay and even Hmong have remarkable "Bronze Drum" culture and also cook "Five Color Sticky Rice" in their occasion.

    It's interesting that the Zhuang, Miao, and Yao people still make use of bronze drums in their traditional ceremonies that are nearly identical to the Dong Son drums.

    http://www.chinaculturetour.com/guil...rum-custom.htm
    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-19-2017 at 03:19 AM.
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    .
    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-20-2017 at 04:29 PM.
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    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-20-2017 at 04:27 PM.
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    @SayWhaat @Dreamhunter @Xiren

    My speculation is that "Southern Viet Nam" of Mekong River Delta until 0 to 1000 AD were still occupied by the Champa and Khmer people, before Dai Viet invaded them much later


    @shazou @easy772 @Jajapinay

    Who were the Trưng Sisters (Bhasa Melayu: Trung Bersaoedari) in Viet Nam history 40 AD?

    Hai Ba Trung










    Whenever I see Trưng Sisters, I feel like they are the heroine woman in South East Asia like Thai, Burma, Khmer to Malaysia and Sumatra ...?

    Some say that the Trung Sisters were of the Tay or Muong stock, the woman elephant riders who "founded" first "Viet Nam" in the northern upper Red River Delta (Song Hong)...


    @DWuji

    This imaginary of the Trung Bersaudari Sisters look somewhat like the Hli (Thai: หลี่) ladies in in 海南島 Hai Nam Island. lol




    @DoraemonLover @Jai @SailorNeptune

    Were the ancient Viet Namese society the matriarchal / maternal lineage?


    Why the "early" stage of modern history of Viet Nam, the Trung Sisters seem the deep respectful toward woman heroine?
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    They were matriarchal, yup.

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    A modern artist's depiction of Dong Son woman.




    Looks like it's based off of this figurine.

    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-21-2017 at 02:04 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Checkout these bronze laddle. So cool.

    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-21-2017 at 02:10 PM.
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  14. #14
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    The ankle bracelet that she's wearing are based on these artifacts. Metal bracelets.





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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorNeptune View Post
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    They were matriarchal, yup.
    @SailorNeptune @PrinceValiant

    The Han glyph of "Surname": = +

    See "Woman"?

    Do you think that in China, by the time about Shang dynasty or before (until about 3500 years ago), the society were of matriarchal / matrilineality? @easy772
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorNeptune View Post
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    They were matriarchal, yup.
    @PrinceValiant @222

    What happened to the matriarchal values? When did they start adopting the patriarchal values?
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    I actually don't know how they make a determination that it was matriarchal society. What evidence is that based on? Not saying it's not true, I just don't know.

    Joan of Arc was a prominent military leader but that didn't necessarily mean French society was matriarchal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceValiant View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I actually don't know how they make a determination that it was matriarchal society. What evidence is that based on? Not saying it's not true, I just don't know.

    Joan of Arc was a prominent military leader but that didn't necessarily mean French society was matriarchal.
    Ask @Doreamon she posted information on it before I believe and I learned something about that in Vietnamese school.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jajapinay View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    @PrinceValiant @222

    What happened to the matriarchal values? When did they start adopting the patriarchal values?

    When Vietnam became a Chinese province (along with other territories in Southern China) starting in the Han dynasty.

    Here's the chronology. It all started with a kingdom called Nanyue. Wiki basics:

    Quote Quote
    Nanyue (Chinese: 南越) or Zhuang: Namzyied, or Nam Viet (Vietnamese: Nam Việt) was an ancient kingdom that covered parts of northern Vietnam and the modern Chinese provinces of Guangdong, Guangxi, and Yunnan. Nanyue was established in 204 BC at the collapse of the Qin dynasty by Zhao Tuo, then Commander of Nanhai.
    Then the Han Dynasty took over:

    Quote Quote
    In 113 BC, fourth-generation leader Zhao Xing sought to have Nanyue formally included as part of the Han Empire. His prime minister Lü Jia objected vehemently and subsequently killed Zhao Xing, installing his elder brother Zhao Jiande on the throne and forcing a confrontation with the Han dynasty. The next year, Emperor Wu of Han sent 100,000 troops to war against Nanyue. By the year's end, the army had destroyed Nanyue and established Han rule.
    Then for most of the next millennia, Northern Vietnam remained a part of various Chinese dynasties until the break up of Tang (907 AD). For several decades after that post-Tang China was divided into multiple territories ruled by warlords.

    Present-day northern Vietnam here is "Annam":




    The Song dynasty in China rose up in power and was able to reabsorb all these territories into its fold, except for Annam which militarily defeated the Song attempts in reclaiming it.

    In summary patriarchy in Vietnam started over 2000 years ago.
    Last edited by PrinceValiant; 03-25-2017 at 10:36 AM.
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  20. #20
    Dong Son map


    Darker marker means higher density of Dong Son's Archaeological site.






    Co Loa citadel is a big Dong Son's Archaeological site. The citadel was build from 500 BC to 100 BC just before the attach of Nam Yue king - Trieu Da.

    Quote Quote
    The monumentality of the rampart system and its overall construction process speak directly to the notion of enduring and consolidated political power. According to Smith (2006: 27), “the manipulation and transformation of space lie at the heart of how ancient states operated.” The Co Loa Polity enacted transformation of physical space on a scale unprecedented for the region. Th size and scale of the rampart system’s construction would have necessitated tremendous labor expenditures and complex forms of labor organization, and with the newly available chronological data indicating a sustained and highly centralized building effort over a relatively short period of time, I propose that the ramparts effectively reflected the power and institutional resilience of the Co Loa Polity. Moreover, the archaeological record during the crucial period of approximately 300–100 bc yields important material indicators evincing centralized control over valuable products and resources, along with a monopoly over the use of deadly force. Th scale of bronze production indicates different facets of raw-material procurement, processing, and craftsmanship, while also underscoring the capacity to reach into the hinterland to bring such resources to the city. In toto, the preponderance of evidence strongly implies that a permanent and durable political authority was in place when Co Loa was founded and its monumental constructions were initiated.

    ..
    As discussed earlier, the conceptualization of state favored in this study pertains to a socially stratifid society, in which political authority and governance are centralized, institutionalized, and permanent, and where rulers hold a preponderance of coercive power with a territorial base. Th state is therefore distinct from middle-range societies (e.g., chiefdom) because leadership is not merely based on social power that stems from ascribed status, wherein forms of political authority can dissipate within a generation.
    ...

    Defied in this way, the term “state” is applicable for the Co Loa Polity, in which we can identify elements of territoriality and coercive power, clearly manifested by the monumental fortifiation system. “Both the rampart system and the institutions necessary to direct and organize its construction are symptomatic of the presence of an archaic state” (Kim 2013a: 244). Many cases of ancient, large-scale, asymmetrical political structures were marked by fragility and instability (Marcus 1998: 94). Multigenerational and durable governance is necessary to keep a polity from undergoing volatile periods of cycling between integration and decentralization (Tejada 2008: 88), of consolidation and dissolution (Marcus 1998).

    Ensuring the continuation of monumental construction effrts at Co Loa would have necessitated a resilient form of political authority, with rulers expecting to successfully complete the rampart project, while also anticipating the polity’s persistent capacity to maintain the architectural structures indefiitely. In addition to upkeep, military personnel would have been required to use the defenses if and when necessary.

    This form of permanent authority would have had another important effect, it would have nurtured a powerful sense of community revolving around the built landscape. Co Loa operated as a regional center, a sociopolitical and economic nucleus field within a wider hinterland, and specialized functions were probably carried out within its protected and potentially sacred spaces. I suspect Co Loa would have been the center of ceremonial and ritual activities, perhaps sponsored by the state.
    Source: Lasting Monuments and Durable Institutions: Labor, Urban-ism, and Statehood in Northern Vietnam and Beyond
    The origin of Ancient Vietnam - Nam C. Kim.


    Co Loa ramparts system as well as the wall were time and labor consuming architecture. For only the wall, it need 1,000 men work for 53 years or 10,000 men work for 5,3 years to construct. They were build by the number of labor suggest the political system was existed there. There were a lot of things like big bronze drum, more than 10,000 bronze arrow, ceramic item as well as ceremonial thing.
    In the paper I cited, Nam C. Kim successfully prof that there was a prehistoric state, which called Co Loa state by him and the capital was Co Loa citadel. Co Loa is an importance Dong Son's Archaeological site can prof that there was a state in northern Vietnam during 300 BC - 100 BC period.

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    Last edited by chessgenius; 04-20-2017 at 01:58 AM.
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