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  1. #1
    Baby Cyber

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    Last edited by Karla Li; 01-14-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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  2. #2
    Master

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    Indonesia

    I believe there are pros and contras, like the Law of Taoism, Yin-Yang philosophy.

    I think it depends on what do you mean by "Chinese".

    I guess that "real Chinese" you meant is the founder of "Great Wall" of China, which were built by various governments in historical lines in Northern China area?

    However, I would like give my opinions:

    My Pros or Yes / Y is:
    a.) Yes, we could say that so, it is may be impossible to search any "purest" race or people in this world because the human tend to migrate mobile and intermixed with various groups surrounding them.

    b.) We speak and write in English, French or Arabic doesn't make we are English, French, Arabians by birth and indeed not ethnicities.



    The contras (No / N) is:

    a.) The English, Spanish, Russian and Japanese, Korean, even Indians also successful to spread their language and culture all over the world.

    They are "White-Euros" still exist, in Europe, Americas, Australia, even Oceanias.

    b.) How many Buddhist mantras and sutras in Sanskrit and Pali were translated into Chinese, Thai, Myanmar, Tibetan, Mongolian, Russian, Vietnamese, Japanese and Korean languages?

    It's uncountable.

    The Sanskrit and Pali were extinct, except in very small villages in Central-South India, called Karnataka where the two distinct groups: Aryan and Dravidian meet together.

    But you see, Indo-Aryan represented by Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi and Bengali, all are top ten languages with largest number of speakers in the world, together with non-Indo-European speakers: Tamil, Chinese, Tagalog, and Japanese language speakers.

    c.) The so-called "Sino-Tibetan" language is still there and exist, from East Asia continental to some parts of SE Asia and South Asia, it is non-sense to say that the "proginator" of the languages are totally extinct.
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  3. #3
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    South-Korea

    Chinese never conquered the Hongshan area until much later. The Hongshan area was isolated from Chinese contact until they began having extensive contact with the Chinese Zhou during Iron Age, and Hebei was the intermediary region that became a "mixing pot" of Chinese and Northeast Asian populations.

    Quote Quote
    Yan is said to have been founded by a branch of Royal Zhou and is thus considered a 'true' Zhou state rather than a non-Zhou state such as the southern states of Wu or Chu. Nevertheless, the material culture of the local poulace derived from the preceding Xiajiadian cultures, and it has been argued that Yan was so isolated from the centre of Zhou politics that it developed its own regional culture and political interests. If anything, Yan was a true 'melting pot', a description which becomes important in understanding the nature of its influence to the northeast in the Late Zhou period.
    The Rise of Civilization in East Asia, Gina L. Barnes.

    Yan's ethnocultural nature would facilitate its role as the conduit of Chinese culture to the Koreans, who came from the same ethnic stock as the Hongshan people.
    Last edited by cydevil; 01-10-2019 at 01:26 PM.
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  4. #4
    Baby Cyber

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    Last edited by Karla Li; 01-14-2019 at 09:49 AM.
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  5. #5
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              Ethnicity:   Y-DNA: M7 mtDNA: C5

    Considering that one of the three super grandfathers of Han Chinese (haplogroup O2a1c1a-F11) has Proto-Hmong-Mien origin from Daxi/Gaomiao Culture, "Hmong-Mien DNA" should be revised so Han Chinese DNA will show more Hmong-Mien

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  6. #6
    Master

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    Indonesia

    Quote Originally Posted by stickyrice View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Considering that one of the three super grandfathers of Han Chinese (haplogroup O2a1c1a-F11) has Proto-Hmong-Mien origin from Daxi/Gaomiao Culture, "Hmong-Mien DNA" should be revised so Han Chinese DNA will show more Hmong-Mien
    Who are the three Great Grandfathers of Han Chinese?

    Are they: Huang Di, Yan Di and Chi You?

    @cydevil @stickyrice
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  7. #7
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              Ethnicity:   Y-DNA: M7 mtDNA: C5

    Quote Originally Posted by 222 View Post
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    Who are the three Great Grandfathers of Han Chinese?

    Are they: Huang Di, Yan Di and Chi You?

    @cydevil @stickyrice
    O3-M117, O3-F46, and O3-F11 are the forefathers of Han Chinese. O3-F11 originated from the south.






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    Last edited by stickyrice; 01-12-2019 at 05:32 PM.
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  8. #8
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    South-Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Karla Li View Post
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    Hongshan people aren't exactly ancestors of Koreans, as almost all Hongshan samples had ydna N, while that's very minimal in Koreans.

    Most Koreans are most likely related to the people known in China as the Eastern Yi barbarians. They were probably an early branch of the Hmong-Thai group that made their way to the northeast China coast and the peninsula. Later they must have adopted a proto-Tungus language while interacting with the Hongshan and that later became the Korean language.
    I said they are related, as in sharing common ancestry from the same area. Koreanic and Japonic populations would have moved further south-east by the time of Hongshan culture, ranging from the Liadong peninsula to the Korean peninsula.

    The Y-dna study on neolithic populations of Manchuria is questionable. The Y-SNP results don't match the Y-STR results. This indicates data contamination or even forgery of data. Regardless, both O3 and C have been found in Hongshan culture. Based on Y-STR results, the first ancient sample of O2b, a common haplogroup in Korea, Japan and Manchuria, has been found in a culture in the Hongshan area dating to 1000 BC.

    Chinese definition of Dongyi(Eastern Yi) varies, but they never referred to Hmong or Thai groups. Hmongs were Namman(Southern barbarians). Neither were there any archaeological indication of a migration to Manchuria from China. It was rather the reverse. Nonetheless, a Hmong or Austronesian group likely have migrated to the Korean peninsula from the Yangtze, bringing along with them rice agriculture, which may have impacted the Japonic languages. Such linguistic impact is absent in Korean however, indicating Koreans were residing further north at the time of Hmong/Austronesian migration. In contrast to the Japonic languages, which was influenced by Southeast Asian languages, the Korean language, aside from its affiliation with Altaic languages/sprashbund, was influenced by Paleo-Siberian languages spoken today by the indigenous peoples of the Russian Far East.
    Last edited by cydevil; 01-12-2019 at 05:16 PM.
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  9. #9
    Master

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    Indonesia

    Quote Originally Posted by cydevil View Post
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    I said they are related, as in sharing common ancestry from the same area. Koreanic and Japonic populations would have moved further south-east by the time of Hongshan culture, ranging from the Liadong peninsula to the Korean peninsula.

    The Y-dna study on neolithic populations of Manchuria is questionable. The Y-SNP results don't match the Y-STR results. This indicates data contamination or even forgery of data. Regardless, both O3 and C have been found in Hongshan culture. Based on Y-STR results, the first ancient sample of O2b, a common haplogroup in Korea, Japan and Manchuria, has been found in a culture in the Hongshan area dating to 1000 BC.

    Chinese definition of Dongyi(Eastern Yi) varies, but they never referred to Hmong or Thai groups. Hmongs were Namman(Southern barbarians). Neither were there any archaeological indication of a migration to Manchuria from China. It was rather the reverse. Nonetheless, a Hmong or Austronesian group likely have migrated to the Korean peninsula from the Yangtze, bringing along with them rice agriculture, which may have impacted the Japonic languages. Such linguistic impact is absent in Korean however, indicating Koreans were residing further north at the time of Hmong/Austronesian migration. In contrast to the Japonic languages, which was influenced by Southeast Asian languages, the Korean language, aside from its affiliation with Altaic languages/sprashbund, was influenced by Paleo-Siberian languages spoken today by the indigenous peoples of the Russian Far East.
    But, like Koreanic, the Japonic as well as Ainu languages also have many elements that make their languages seem related to the Altaic and Paleo-Siberian languages extended from Finland to Canada (Native Americans).

    You also notice the studies by world linguistic about Dravidian links to Korean languages, which is including Japanese language.

    The Dravidian languages influences is indeed very huge in South East Asia maritime mainly Indonesia and Malaysia.

    There are numerous words in Indonesian and Malaysian that surprisingly Tamil (Dravidian) in origin.

    The Indonesian and Malaysian people in general also don't notice that the words / vocabularies are actually Dravidian or Indo-Aryan languages.

    Why the Dravidian links also arrived in Japan and Korea?

    Well, during Hinduism-Buddhism golden era 2500 years ago in South Asia, the Indic influences seem spreaded greatly all over Asia.

    Including the Korean popular legend of King Suro, who married an Indian queen from Ayuda Kingdom (assumed to be in ancient India or Nepal, not in Thailand which is Ayutthaya that built only in 13th CE).

    That Ayuda queen is said to migrated to Korea via Silk Road in Central Asia and China.
    Last edited by 222; 01-13-2019 at 09:08 AM.
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  10. #10
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              Ethnicity:   Yehudi

    Good reads and a good discussion. Objective analysis of anthropology and constructive arguing at hand without the lenses of trying to push a nationalist narrative.

    If this keeps up, I might become active again here.
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  11. #11
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    No never, how can such magnificent people disappear in to dust. They are the bringers of the rice bowl haircut and the bearers of chopsticks.

    Chinese people are just one of homosapien sapien who inhabit the earth. We don't really know who the original bearers of the chopsticks were but I'm going to say this baby is one of the semi decendents as he will learn the chopstick but not the bowl cut. hes got more style.��

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  12. #12
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    South-Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by 222 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But, like Koreanic, the Japonic as well as Ainu languages also have many elements that make their languages seem related to the Altaic and Paleo-Siberian languages extended from Finland to Canada (Native Americans).

    You also notice the studies by world linguistic about Dravidian links to Korean languages, which is including Japanese language.

    The Dravidian languages influences is indeed very huge in South East Asia maritime mainly Indonesia and Malaysia.

    There are numerous words in Indonesian and Malaysian that surprisingly Tamil (Dravidian) in origin.

    The Indonesian and Malaysian people in general also don't notice that the words / vocabularies are actually Dravidian or Indo-Aryan languages.

    Why the Dravidian links also arrived in Japan and Korea?

    Well, during Hinduism-Buddhism golden era 2500 years ago in South Asia, the Indic influences seem spreaded greatly all over Asia.

    Including the Korean popular legend of King Suro, who married an Indian queen from Ayuda Kingdom (assumed to be in ancient India or Nepal, not in Thailand which is Ayutthaya that built only in 13th CE).

    That Ayuda queen is said to migrated to Korea via Silk Road in Central Asia and China.
    Koreanic, and to a lesser extent, Japonic, are closely related to other Altaic languages, Mongolic, Tungusic and Turkic, and they form the Altaic sprachbund. What it means is that these language speakers lived in closed proximity and had extensive contact for thousands of years. The Altaic sprachbund theory is the result of some critics rejecting the Altaic language family theory, that the Altaic languages come from a common ancestral language. But since they still cannot deny that the languages are closely related, they turned to the Altaic sprachbund theory. However, the Altaic language family theory debate is still an on-going process with many proponents.

    Given the Altaic influences, Koreanic and Japonic have different substrate influences. Koreanic is influenced by Paleo-Siberian languages, and Japonic is influenced by Southeast Asian languages. This is probably because Koreanic speakers were distributed further to the north, while Japonic speakers were distributed further to the south in the Korea-Manchuria region. Relationship with the Dravidian language is also uncanny. It's possible the earlier inhabitants in the area, whose descendents became the Jomon people in Japan, have spoken a language related to Dravidian. I'm more skeptical on the Queen He theory, the Indian queen, since the immigrant population was a few thousand and wouldn't have impacted the Korean language as much.
    Last edited by cydevil; Yesterday at 02:28 PM.
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